Wednesday, May 31, 2006

Love your Neighbor

So most of you know that I don't really attend church these days. I learned that Sunday, a letter was read over the pulpit in all LDS wards around the country asking members to write their Senators urging them to support the Federal Marriage Amendment Act. The LDS church has also joined the Christian Coalition in a signed statement of support.

I can't find the words to say exactly how I feel about this. It saddens me. If I hadn't chosen to stop going to church by this time, this would have been very strong motivation to stop.

I agree with what this blogger has to say on the matter, and feel they say it very well:
Exponent II: Making Sense of Sunday


Blogger Stargirl said...

I cannot see how the church's letter was written out of love. I do not think the statement was made for members. The church has long refrained from political activism, and it was in large part because of this that I have been able to feel right belonging to it. I do not see how becoming political on this matter is serving its members. Why this issue, besides? Why not take a political stand on gun control, or abuse, or genocide? Something that affects me and you? My marriage isn't threatened because two people in Maine who are in love get married.
I see no good coming from the letter. I see it only feeding those who hate, and condemn, and are afraid.
Once again, I don't think the church made the statement for members. A statement for us was already made: The Proclaimation. What need has the Church to get involved in politics? The laws do not affect my testimony. And I definitely think joining hands with the Christian Coalition was not a good thing.
I could go on and on, but I am tired from weeping. I am worn out. I can make excuses for the church no longer.

This makes me immensely sad, that I am so fatigued. I want so much to belong to a church that I feel is right.

And I do not feel this is right.

The Gospel is true; the words of Christ are true. He lead an incredible life, and I feel His spirit around me. I will continue to study the scriptures, and continue to lead a spiritual life.

God forgive me, but I don't think I can go to church anymore.

5/31/2006 8:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's completely amazing to me how people who think they can see, are actually totally blind. That's all I'm going to say because I think it's completely obvious why this was read. Besides why have like 20 comments just to point out the fact in the end that you can't see.

The previous post about searching for more spiritual moments, well if you were seeing spiritually then this wouldn't be so hard to understand. Find the spirit and then see it the right way.

I really have to bite my tongue or typing fingers should I say. I really can't believe both of your responses. To me it's almost like saying the sun's not shining while you're being burned to death by it. I'm totally shocked. I just want to state like all 1000 reasons this makes total sense.

As you can see it would be pointless to battle out something we will never agree on. I just needed to state my shock.

6/01/2006 11:41 PM  
Blogger Stargirl said...

Like, "anonymous," you are like, totally ignorant. Let me guess: you're the type of person who says, "pray about it," and then assumes that if someone gets a different answer than you, then they didn't pray "right." You obviously didn't understand the last post; the point is, there are a million different ways and places to feel the spirit, and I'm wondering where others find it. The point is, I AM a spiritual person. You have NO IDEA the history I have with my testimony, and the reasons why I am so disgusted by the Church's actions. And how dare you assume that I am blind. You know NOTHING of me.
I am a firm believer that the church should NOT get involved in politics; for years, I have held on to that comfort. There is no reason why they should, and for decades the apostles have stated the same.
Anonymous, I am not going to explain myself, because I don't care about your opinion of me. I care what God thinks of me. I see Him more often than you, anyway.

I didn't write my response so that you can tell me how you are "shocked" that I am so "blind." You seem only intent on pointing out what others do and think wrong, than to examine your own, and maybe respond to the actual post, which was the original intent of the blogger. You have not read a word I've said; you only care that it disagrees with your own views.

This blog was created to make a safe place for people to discuss issues, concerns, and beliefs. I repeat: a SAFE place. That means free from ridicule, chastisement, and arguments. If you feel it is necessary to do any of those, then please refrain from visiting this blog. I do not want to share my beliefs with the fear that they will be minimized and accused of faults. My beliefs are what they are, and the person who wrote the original post is merely asking us what we think of current events; not what we think of each other.

A final word: The world is imperfect. We cannot fit everone in a neat little box; there are exceptions to every rule, and we have to get our hands a little dirty to feel ourselves clean. How many drug addicts do you know? When was the last time you spent a day crying with an abused child? THIS is the work that needs to be done. THIS is what Christ did every day, what He'd want us to do right now. And believe me, I'm doing my best... and anyone who knows me at all would not argue with that.

So why don't you take a good hard look at your own life, and maybe read the post, and respond to THAT, instead of arguing with those that don't agree with you? I wasn't picking a fight with you, so don't take it so personally. Maybe you can keep your "shock" to yourself next time, too.

6/02/2006 12:00 PM  
Blogger Iron Chef Boyardee said...

I can't respect a person who's going to be critical of someone else's opinion or spirtual crisis and not have the guts to sign their name to it. Well way to go, nonentity, you're shocked. "Find the spirit and then see it the right way." what a bigoted thing to say. "Find the spirit and see it MY way, because I'm ALWAYS right, and couldn't POSSIBLY be wrong because I feel warm and fuzzy inside when I hear things I agree with."

Yeah, fine, I'm disrespectful too. Instead of belittling or criticizing another person and getting all shocked and self righteously indignant, why don't you help people understand, why don't you help and explain? I know most of the people who post here personally, and UNLIKE many people who are merely wanting to have themselves be proven right, they're looking for truth, for answers, for reasons. All your posts seem to do is feed your ego and put honest seekers of truth down. That's not what Jesus would do (I'm pretty sure). So get off your shocked high horse and try helping people.

Start with me. I honestly don't know what to make of the church's announcement. On one hand, I can see the purpose in strengthening the family in a country where it's being repeatedly disrespected... but on the other hand, the church has already DONE that on the Proclamation on the Family? What is it about THIS issue that's so important to cause the church to hold hands with the Christian Coalition (who has spent the last 20 years telling Mormons that we're not one of them - Christians) I don't get why. To me, there are about a hundred more damaging and harmful things to humanity than... homosexuality. I don't get it. Stargirl doesn't get it. We don't get it. And when we try to process or understand why, or how, or what for, we run into people like anonymous there.

I'd LOVE LOVE LOVE to go to church if it was a place where I could ask question and figure stuff our, understand the spiritual things I don't understand. But most of the time, it's just people like anonymous agreeing with each other and getting nasty when a person like me asks "huh? why?" So instead I go to church (yes, I do go), and I sit, and I wonder why I'm not finding the answers to my spriritual questions there.


6/02/2006 1:21 PM  
Blogger lumina said...

wow. right on James and Audrey...

Anonymous, it's really lame to anonymously criticize people.

And I would like to hear one of your 1,000 reasons why this letter was read in church.

6/10/2006 12:31 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


It's totally obvious. I'm not going to argue about it. All of you know why it was read in church you're just rationalizing yours or the actions of those close to you.

The doctrine didn't change. Everything is the same as it was before the letter was read. So if people want to leave the church because someone read a letter that had doctrine in it that already existed, well then I think they're just stupid. Just looking for any reason out.

Wickedness never was happiness. Also you might remember the sacrament prayer where it says you will have His spirit to be with you. If your not at church and taking the sacrament you're not honoring your baptismal covenants and therefore anything you think is the spirit is not and you're being deceived.

I'm only anon because you don't know me. I comment on who I am when sometone knows who I am. Call me Chuck or David, what does it matter James or Audrey?

How about being man or woman enough to admit your letting your pride destroy you. Letting little things like a letter cause you to leave the church. I don't know what the real problem is, but you do. Fix the real problem and then the letter would have been just a letter. You would have seen it in it's proper context and it would have been a non issue.

6/10/2006 3:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I want you to know that I say these things this way because I care about you. You have a ton of people to say oh it's okay honey, sweetheart, love, son, daughter, brother, sister, friend, husband or wife. I know who you are and you're not any of these things to me. Therefore I will say what I think in the purest and most straight forward way. I have nothing to lose or to gain by what I say. All of those other people do. That's why I said what I said the way I said it. But to be honest, even if I was one of those people I still would have said it the same way.

6/10/2006 3:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Okay, I have a deal for all you who love to go off on anonymous. The next time we see each other in person I will introduce myself. You will see I won't be any different, but you will be. This is going to be fun. There might not be a next time. I don't see your peers too much anymore. But if it happens this will be really fun. Then we can really talk. No holding back or chickening out. You will also see tone goes a big way in person. My tone hasn't really been what you've thought. But yours has been clear. I really want this meeting to happen.

I can't wait. Remember to treat me like crap like you do here. I'll remember to try and care about you enough to fight for your eternal welfare. By the way that's what I have been doing here. Take care all.

6/10/2006 6:46 PM  
Blogger Amber said...

Am I going to have to change comments to have to be approved first? This is all really too bad, and not where I'd like this blog to be at all...

6/10/2006 8:44 PM  
Blogger Stargirl said...

Amber, I have the same thoughts as you. This is malicious and horrible.
After the first few comments, I went in and changed the "comments" options to only allow bloggers to comment, but my dedication to free speech was overpowering, so an hour later, I changed it back. Ought we to do something? I feel this is a hostile place to be now, which is exactly the opposite thing we're trying to create.

And to all anonymouses: My eternal salvation is none of your business. In the grand scheme of things, I'm sure not worried about it, so neither should you be. You don't have any idea who my soul is; only Christ knows that, so don't be so presumptuous as to think I'm damned. And I sure think I remember reading somewhere that judging others is wrong...

I don't like being forced to defend my beliefs or questions in a forum that welcomes both of those. If you feel like being unchristlike, then don't come to this blog.

6/11/2006 6:41 PM  
Blogger Iron Chef Boyardee said...

"Instead of belittling or criticizing another person and getting all shocked and self righteously indignant, why don't you help people understand, why don't you help and explain? I know most of the people who post here personally, and UNLIKE many people who are merely wanting to have themselves be proven right, they're looking for truth, for answers, for reasons. All your posts seem to do is feed your ego and put honest seekers of truth down. That's not what Jesus would do (I'm pretty sure). So get off your shocked high horse and try helping people. "

And instead of helping, more bluster, condemnation, and hyperbole. Typical. Even when someone ASKS for help, you act like a tool.

6/12/2006 9:06 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Amber, Stargirl, Chef, and Lumina you may find it very interesting that I had someone call me last night and tell me they wanted to leave the church over something they couldn't accept. I thought I can't believe this is happening for real with someone I know. He told me what it was and I said to him exactly what I said here. I told him he was rationalizing something else that was troubling him.

We talked for hours and will talk again on Saturday for hours. there's no quick fix that's for sure.

Again I stated how I was in complete shock that he would let such a small thing get to him like that. His concern didn't even involve something we have to deal with in this life.

I'm so confused on how people can be so confused.

He asked for me to be a friend and I told him I weak in that area. I do good on my own, there's less trouble that way.

Chef I feel as though your question is not an easy one and there's no quick fix. It would take real time and not just a few words here or there.

Let's be honest people, especially you women, a person can say anything and you could be offended or take things the wrong way. I'm true to how I feel in the moment and do not apologize for being real and completely honest at all times.

Good luck to you all. I hope you find your answers. I believe you had them right in front of you already.

6/12/2006 11:55 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You may try and twist my words but to me a friend should be supportive in everything and I can't support this guy with the choices he's making now. If someone refuses my help they're not a friend. If they change courses in a great degree then they're not a friend. If I find they're someone that I did'nt think they were then they're not a friend. Hence why I need to be true and perfectly honest always.

Suprise! I've yet to find anyone I can really call a friend. No one can be trusted enough to earn the high status of friend. It's something I value almost as high as being able to call someone husband or wife. I know you don't just go around and marry anyone you feel like. There's a huge process and no one has my trust enough to be that either.

The very fact they say they now disagree with my most prized possession (my testimony) means I can't trust them. I can't be friends with someone I don't trust. Would I like to be friends with many people, yes.

At least you can trust me to disagree and not pretend to be something I'm not.

6/13/2006 10:15 AM  
Blogger Stargirl said...

It must be a lonely, lonely world out there for people who can't find a friend or keep trust if someone disagrees with you. How boring. I feel sorry for you.

My husband and I disagree with each other all the time. It's great! We learn to solve differences and grow stronger from it. That's the whole point of living on earth... but it seems like you're missing it.

I think you're missing a lot of things, actually.

6/15/2006 7:48 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


Here's two scenarios. In the first one I have a co-worker who drinks, smokes, has pre-marital sex, swears a lot, has devil worshipping roomates etc. I can talk to him and be friend like with him because he's not out there trying to represent himself as something he's not.

The next scenario is every member of the church who fell away. I was friend like with them based on a common bond, that bond being our beliefs. They changed and therefore were misrespresnting themselves and I maybe got close to or liked someone who was a fraud.

It's one thing to disagree with a spouse per se about the colour of your furniture or other minor things. But if the whole reason you were drawn to them or anyone for that matter was based on a common belief and that's what changed is something I can't and don't know how to deal with.

Now do you see what I really mean about trust. It's not simply disagreeing. It's destroying the foundation of why a person was considered important to begin with.

I guess that also explains more fully my tone here. Even though we were'nt that close I thought I could trust most of you here in this group to not do what you're your currently embracing. The bases of how we knew each other was via the gospel and not as a co-worker or a patient or someone off the street. That's the difference.

6/15/2006 9:43 PM  
Blogger Stargirl said...

Why is changing misrepresenting yourself? People change. The world changes. Even the Church changes. It's not fraud; it's life. It's reality. I pity you, that your world is so static.

"It's destroying the foundation of why a person was considered important to begin with."
Anonymous, if you can't see how EVERYONE is important, then you live a lonely life. Everyone is important to God; if you are striving to be like Him, shouldn't you be focusing on finding what's "important" in everyone? I don't care if I have NOTHING in common with someone; they are still important because they can teach me lessons and help me learn, among so many other things. It's insulting how you imply that because someone "fell away" (which, by the way, if you were paying any attention, you'd know that the bloggers who have commented on this post have not "fallen away", we're trying to support our testimonies) they are no longer important to you. Shame on you! Shame.

Maybe you feel like you've been lied to. I'm sorry for that. But do you blame they sky for being sunny if the day before it was not? It is simply change... and the only way to improve one's self and grow is by change. I hope you change, too. I hope everyone changes. It is a good thing. If no one did so, none of us would be perfect, now, would we?

I wish you the best. I hope you see things in a brighter light.

6/16/2006 11:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I would like to know everyones definition of falling away. This is the real meat of the discussion.

Mine is this. Lets say that we are on a path that leads back to God. Well to be fully on that path we need to honor all of our covenants. Failure to keep any of them leads to falling away in degrees.

The scarament is part of a covenant and we need to take it weekly if possible. You may say that most churches have that. I say show me their authority or priesthood. To simply have learned things in university gives someone knowledge but no real authority.

How can you be keeping your convenants while not even going to church? You can't. You can be a good person in your heart and to others, but good people also have to keep covenants to get the real benefits.

Every covenant not kept is falling away and to not keep even one is falling away. To not be going to church shows not keep the most basic covenant and therefore none of the others are being kept either. I call this falling away. I don't necessarily call you bad or mean. Like I said of my co-worker/boss, he's a nice guy and would do anything to make my day easier. He doesn't enter into or keep any covenants.

6/17/2006 10:42 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


By not posting my last comment shows that you're not capable of having a legitimate discussion. The only discussions that you want to be a part of are the ones that support you in your desire to sin or whatever. It probably kills you to know your marriage is only temporary. That if it holds true till the day you die is the worst choice could have made. It also shows you know what your doing is wrong. You didn't post it because you know there's no answer that will support your desire to fall away. Maybe even worse than that your desire to bring others down with you.

It was really simple actually. I stated my opinion and everyone else should have been free to state theirs. The fact that they didn't even get to see it shows again that you know there's no answer. You know what's wrong and you're still doing it.

What a great group at least so far between you, Paul when he was here, Audrey and James. All there to support in each in rebeling against what you know is true.

My point is not even spiritually speaking the church is true. Logically it's true. No other church out there claims any authority or shows any proof. Plus the spirit testifies. No other church has direct revelation from God. Plus the spirit testifies. No other church requires so much of it's members which is probably the real reason all of you are having such a hard time. I even hard a hard time with all that's expected of me. I don't always pass with flying colors. We need to be humble and seek the Lord's help and not the support of those to will support our desire to do what's wrong.

For the record I talked to the guy who said he wanted to leave the church. He really doesn't, I found out the real issue. He was just trying to get out easy. there's a real issue for each of you that you're too ashamed of and or trying to hide. REPENT. It's that simple. Jesus died for you. You can't stop him from loving you, no matter what. You will receive peace again. His support is greater than all the people of the earth combined. Let Him love you more fully by being worthy of the blessings He is so willing to give.

See if I write about someone's weakness in the gospel you readily post it. When I post about someone's strength you ignore it. That's wrong. It's biased and your a fruad to call this a discussion group at all.

6/17/2006 10:01 PM  
Blogger Amber said...

Unfortunately, jumping to conclusions (as to why I didn't publish your post right away) and judging as such are not very Christ-like.

You may point fingers and blame or condemn me all you wish. That is your right. I do, however, feel very sad that the entire point of my post has been missed.

Love your neighbor.

I don't know who you are because you choose to remain anonymous. It doesn't matter. You are a child of God, and it is YOUR relationship with him that matters. No matter how well I know you or don't know you, it doesn't matter. What matters is the peace you feel in your heart and your relationship with God.

You may freely judge me. I know my relationship with God and I am at peace.

I love you all, whoever you choose to be - and I won't presume to know where you stand in God's eyes. As far as I know, he loves YOU dearly - and so should I.

Now please, can we move on to uplifting conversations?

6/18/2006 11:31 AM  
Blogger Stargirl said...

Amen, Amber.

And Anonymous, you are not welcome here. Anyone who would ridicule another's beliefs, and who would make personal jabs at them, is not welcome. So please, stay away.

You don't have to comment on this blog. So if you don't like to do it, then don't. You won't save any souls by acting the way you do.

I think I'll re-post about spirituality in the universe. We all need a little more of that.

6/19/2006 5:53 PM  
Blogger Iron Chef Boyardee said...


Using a knowledge of the gospel to belittle, tear down, and insult people isn't being Christlike, it's being Satanic. You can sit there behind a keyboard and tell people they're rebelling and need to repent, but when I ASKED for input, help, advice, you were mute.

I'm not entirely sure what I'm rebelling against. I go to church when I'm not working, I share the gospel and serve my fellow man daily. BUT apparently asking "why?" and wanting to gain an understanding of things is threatening to you. This forum was made because at church we DON'T TALK ABOUT ANYTHING! We sit, someone says something that they know is true, and everyone nods. I've not been questioning the church's doctrine regarding homosexuality (though others here may be), I'm asking why are we on this particular political bandwagon. I asked, and asked, and asked, and all you had was insults, accusations, and dogma.

Maybe in your world that's acting like Jesus would. Please, can I bring over some of my homeless people whose cases I manage so you can berate them for being homeless and hungry? I bet they could use a few insulting remarks and self righteous indignation. Christ healed the sick, not those that were well. I feel lost at times. I am going to go out on a limb and say we all do. But when you say things the way you do, you're not standing as a witness of Christ, you're acting like an overbearing self righteous prick, and it drives people AWAY from the light of Christ, just like President Hinckley discussed at priesthood session in April.

One thing I have learned from talking with most of the people on here is what different places we are all at spiritually. For me, it was interesting to realize that thr church was a place I wanted to be again... but like I've said on many occasions, the lack of spiritual feeding gets frustrating. I'm sure Ry-er-Anonymous would say that's because I'm some kind of sinner.

6/19/2006 9:47 PM  
Blogger lumina said...



I can't believe this all went down.
and it's in the archive!

it's pretty amazing documentation of some intense feelings and situations that are part of being human and specifically part of being Mormon. This whole post was such great authentic performance art, and by that I mean, life being lived in a forum that others could be stimulated to think about what was happening and learn from it.

Bravo to everyone who contributed. Bravo to all of us here who are living the human drama fully and truly engaging in the most important questions about life. Bravo for emotion and love and intense feeling, for expression and anger and forgiveness and peace. This is an incredible experience to be alive here. I'm so relieved to know people who chew on the bones of life, looking for the marrow.

Anonymous, I will be able to refer to some of the things that you wrote as a primer of how NOT to talk to people who are struggling to find light at church. And it is an important tool for me to have so thank you for taking the time to teach me, or remind me of some of those things.

James and Audrey, Amber and Kristin, there is a part of where Anonymous is coming from that I want to be honest about agreeing is the part where he says (albeit between the lines) that he wants you to come back into full activity at church. I want that for all of you because I think it will bring more peace and joy than you are currently experiencing. I think that you experience peace and joy already...because you are doing good things in the world, nurturing others and giving of yourselves, and I think that you will have more peace and joy added to that when you embrace the gospel and allow it to embrace you back. It's a difficult proposition, and I am struggling with it right now. When I got my temple reccomend a few weeks ago, (after not having one for a year and a half) it felt like having to cut off my hand. I felt like Abraham being asked to stab Isaac, it felt impossible like sacrifice...but I prayed, and cried, and recieved Grace (divine help) and laid parts of myself on the altar in exchange for the blessings of the temple and the pure joy of the Spirit. I'm not trying to say that I'm so wonderful, although I am proud of my decision because it was so hard. I'm trying to say that I am in touch with, and aware with how much is hard to take at aware...and I sympathize and even empathize with your situation of looking for spiritual sustenance. I am also saying that it is available at church, but it comes at a cost. I am exploring the sacrifice that is part of being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and finding that it might even be more than paying tons and tons of money in tithing (that part is hard!) or not drinking a little wine once in a while, and being freaking celibate (!) but I'm finding that it is a sacrifice even of my own deepest beliefs, but the beliefs that are just one tiny tier above the very very deepest, which is that the Church is true. At least that is where I am placing that belief, I am placing it below all the others, as in deepest in my heart, with the most significance out of all of my other beliefs, I am choosing to honor my testimony of the church as primary above all others, and choosing consciously to trust that all the other beliefs of my heart, (which sometimes it seems like the church does not promote), will be attended to eventually. I don't know how Heavenly Father will answer all of my questions, or reconcile some of the huge messes it seems to me like the church has made...I don't have any idea what will happen with homosexuality in the church, I can't see how it can be resolved...but I choose to trust that God is more capable at figuring it all out than I am, and so I am placing myself in His care and asking for Him to help me to evolve and asking for Him to help me see and know the Truth.
does that make sense?

And God does love us all, Anonymous and all, all of us, and He is giving us the opportunity to hash this out ourselves.

I love you all for communicating about this and being the fighting souls that you are. Valiant and true souls.



6/27/2006 7:39 PM  
Blogger Stargirl said...

Lumina, you are beautiful.

Thank you for sharing with us your testimony. I appreciate your love...

Every heart that I see reminds me of you!

6/28/2006 2:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's been a while and I don't know why I decided to check back to see what has changed.

Audrey, It's amazing that you can snap like a twig and completely lose it. After dealing with all those kids for so many years I would think you could approach it better. Oh well there's definitely a fire within you. I like passion. I don't feel like I'm attacking or being defensive. I'm stating the facts as I see it. As I have stated below the facts would never accept was has caused so much hostility against the church.

James, now why would anyone want to talk about homosexuality at church? There's no way that no matter where this is talked about that the spirit would be there. It's a sin. I remember on my mission when we interviewed candidates for baptism there were things that could come up that needed a higher authority to deal with it and one of them was homosexuality. It's wrong and will never be right. People are free to bring up whatever they want at church. Go for it, I would love to see that response. We are supposed to strengthen testimonies and not give people the idea that sin is okay.

James I have known a lot of people who are suffering greatly. Maybe even worse than the people you deal with everyday. I like to talk to people like that. Usually a part of their past emerges that triggered all of what they're are going through. I don't think it makes anything excusable. Heavenly Father knows the real person and their knowledge of what's right and wrong, not us.

I thought you guys knew it's wrong to be homosexual. Remember Sodom and Gomorrah, well they weren't raised immediately into Heaven like the city of Enoch now were they? They were burned, destroyed and completely wiped off the face of the earth.

God doesn't turn to the left or to the right, His course is one eternal round. It will never be right to do something contrary to everything that makes God, God. It would be like saying murder is completely fine for any reason whatsoever, just because I feel like it. It's all about life, the right to make, create, give and sustain it.

If we sleep with anyone other than someone who we are married to it infringes on the right of a child to be created in a loving home with two parents.

If we sleep with the same sex it's impossible to create life together whatsoever and therefore that would be an end to the progression of those parents and in fact could not be considered parents at all because they could never partake of the sacred right to create life. It's damnation in the way that they would never have seed and would never contribute to the progression of the human race. Now if they couldn't contribute to the human race how would they ever contribute to the spiritual one as well? There's no surrogate parents in Heaven.

To think that Amber and Audrey feel so strongly as to leave the church over something that makes no sense is amazing to me.

Amber, you love your child I'm sure. You know another woman would have never allowed you the opportunity to have such a blessed experience. Impossible! Why would you want to talk about and or even support something that wouldn't let you experience probably some of your greatest moments in this life? Would you really have it another way?

James again. Church if nothing else allows us to feel what we know to be true even though the discussion at hand may be boring or not uplifting. Name any topic and I can find experiences of my own to ponder if I'm not involved in what's being said. Granted I would imagine having a spiritual discussion of some sort and not a discussion about a sin that should be considered not being a sin anymore. That's the problem with this world, everything is being skewed to appear not to be a sin. People get ridiculed for being a virgin, IE the forty year old virgin. The world is filled with sin being the norm. The world is getting more and more open and stretching the boundries of what they consider a sin. I know there's no elastic cord in the line drawn by Heavenly Father. The same things that were considered sin when Adam and Eve came is the same things today. It has never changed and never will. So why would anything considered to be sin be discussed at church?

Good luck to you all.

Curiousity might get the best of me to check back but probably not. As I said you have tons of people to hold your hand and agree with you and I decided to be the one to fight for you. Because as Audrey said, I'm not welcome here. You could care less about me, so it's perfect because we had nothing to gain or lose. I was just stating a point you would never hear from anyone else.

I don't get it. I mean James would you further encourage the people you work with to do more drugs if that was their problem? Hey why not fight to make them legal when you clearly know it's what kept them from progressing to be all that they could be. The same with Alcohol, physical and mental abuse, who would encourage partaking of it more freely? No one that I could think of and as previously stated homeosexuality stunts our progression as well.

Here's a link to a site that I find thought provoking and inspiring.

7/07/2006 11:52 PM  
Blogger Iron Chef Boyardee said...

Again, reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. No where in there did I ever state or counterdict the church's position regarding homorsexuality, I questioned why the church would take a political stand when in every conference I can remember they say the exact opposite... but then it's easier for you to go off on something you're familiar with than actually answering THE BLOODY QUESTION THAT WAS ACTUALLY ASKED.

Sheesh. Secondly, don't kid yourself, and knock off the revisionist history you've got running up in your head there. Nothing in what you were doing constituted "fighting FOR" anyone. You attacked and belittled people and mocked testimonies, marriages, and character. Nowhere in your posts is there a real example of Christlike behavior, but it's rife with the opposite. So whatever. Take off, you hoser.

7/08/2006 8:07 PM  
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7/08/2006 9:41 PM  

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