Love, Discussion, Debate...
Wow...I missed some interesting posts in my absence. I would like to make a few points regarding the "How to love a leaver" and "Safe Discussion Zone" concepts:
First, I am an advocate of debate. I enjoy it and I think it challenges me to better articulate my ideas. Occaisionally I even agree with someone elses opinion. However, a debate is much more interesting if I repsect the person representing the opposite point of view. I think a healthy discussion demands that people take opposing sides to an issue and point out when errors of reasoning have been made. But I do not feel that this blog is primarily about debate. I think we all feel that if we can share a few sensitive ideas and see how other respectable people respond we stand to gain something. Sometimes that involves support, and occaisionally it involves disagreement. A group that isn't open to both would be one-legged.
I also agree with the statement that has been made several times that an improper response to those questioning and/or leaving the church is due to immaturity. But it is important to realize that the primary way to transition from immaturity to maturity is through experience, and most of us don't get the required kind of experience that often. Immaturity is not suprising, horrifying, or abnormal. It is just another word for the natural state that everyone lives in until they are forced or inspired to move to another level. I am constantly amazed by the new levels of immaturity that I find in myself. I sometimes seem like such a child.
Amber, I am glad that you can share your experience regarding your spiritual search and I hope you realize that there are people out here who are interested, sympathetic, and moved by your experience. I don't necessarily agree with all aspects of your approach, however, so I would like you to clarify a few things. Is your distance from the church motivated more by doctrinal or social issues? It is a valid complaint to say that church members do not love unconditionally, or that you simply don't feel comfortable or accepted in the society, but to me that does not seem to be the thing that causes such deep questioning. All people are imperfect, and I think that anyone who cannot accept a key doctrinal tenet is going to feel uncomfortable in a soceity that is based on commonality of belief.
In a way, I am agnostic. I don't think anything important can be proven (this despite my love of proving things). However, I feel comfortable being active in the church, amongst a lot of people who seem pretty sure that everything is proven, because I am willing to act on "blind" faith. I don't feel like I have any other options, and I am pragmatic in the sense that when I don't have a choice, I don't take it. To me, the option of finding meaning in things I physically know does not exist. So I hope for things that are not seen, and I understand that I share a common hope with the believers.
First, I am an advocate of debate. I enjoy it and I think it challenges me to better articulate my ideas. Occaisionally I even agree with someone elses opinion. However, a debate is much more interesting if I repsect the person representing the opposite point of view. I think a healthy discussion demands that people take opposing sides to an issue and point out when errors of reasoning have been made. But I do not feel that this blog is primarily about debate. I think we all feel that if we can share a few sensitive ideas and see how other respectable people respond we stand to gain something. Sometimes that involves support, and occaisionally it involves disagreement. A group that isn't open to both would be one-legged.
I also agree with the statement that has been made several times that an improper response to those questioning and/or leaving the church is due to immaturity. But it is important to realize that the primary way to transition from immaturity to maturity is through experience, and most of us don't get the required kind of experience that often. Immaturity is not suprising, horrifying, or abnormal. It is just another word for the natural state that everyone lives in until they are forced or inspired to move to another level. I am constantly amazed by the new levels of immaturity that I find in myself. I sometimes seem like such a child.
Amber, I am glad that you can share your experience regarding your spiritual search and I hope you realize that there are people out here who are interested, sympathetic, and moved by your experience. I don't necessarily agree with all aspects of your approach, however, so I would like you to clarify a few things. Is your distance from the church motivated more by doctrinal or social issues? It is a valid complaint to say that church members do not love unconditionally, or that you simply don't feel comfortable or accepted in the society, but to me that does not seem to be the thing that causes such deep questioning. All people are imperfect, and I think that anyone who cannot accept a key doctrinal tenet is going to feel uncomfortable in a soceity that is based on commonality of belief.
In a way, I am agnostic. I don't think anything important can be proven (this despite my love of proving things). However, I feel comfortable being active in the church, amongst a lot of people who seem pretty sure that everything is proven, because I am willing to act on "blind" faith. I don't feel like I have any other options, and I am pragmatic in the sense that when I don't have a choice, I don't take it. To me, the option of finding meaning in things I physically know does not exist. So I hope for things that are not seen, and I understand that I share a common hope with the believers.
posted by Redbeard at 1:57 PM
4 Comments:
In a forum such as this, I think it is important to know what can and cannot be accomplished. This group started with the idea of meeting weekly. These recurring meetings would be a place where controversial issues could be explored in a safe and accepting way. I was experiencing very anxious moments in my religious convictions and expected/hoped this group might provide comfort. I was mistaken, because every week people said the same things, myself included. Every week I felt like people had no comprehension of what I was talking about, and I did not value what people had to say in response. So I left the group one day, said it wasn’t doing anything for me, and suddenly there were no in-person meetings. It seems that other people were feeling the same way.
What went wrong? The people participating were open-minded, intelligent people. It seems as if it should have been successful.
I’m going to answer this pseudo-rhetorical question. I wanted something! I wanted something very deeply! And I wanted it from people I’m not all that close to! Don’t get me wrong, I love developing meaningful and intimate relationships with people, and sometimes that is achieved by talking about soul-wrenching things with strangers, but I am going to say that searching for relief from the anxiety I felt over the possibility that God doesn’t exist from an eclectic group that met on Sunday at noon around my scratched coffee table was an unrealistic goal.
And so I say hurrah for your post. I do not think that this spiritual discussion group is ideal for soothing intense feelings, but it is a good place for ideas to be heard and convictions evaluated.
I think your statements on immaturity are important. To an extent I agree with you, but there are nuances with which I disagree. I see immaturity leading to abusive behavior, and that has horrifying effects. Let me take an extreme example. I work at a juvenile court, and therefore most of the stories I have off-hand are extreme. A mother is insane and homicidal and strangles her two year old daughter at a park with a shoelace. Is this horrifying? Absolutely. Do I condemn the mother? Yes. But she is crazy. Her reason is immature. Therefore I feel for her and try to understand her in some degree. In essence, I don’t expect too much out of her. I don’t like hating her nor do I think it’s a useful thing to do, so I don’t.
So where do we draw the line between what is normal (the woman’s craziness) and what is horrifying (the abuse)? How do we accept the immaturity within ourselves and others while protecting ourselves and others from terrible pain? In the case of the woman, permanent hospitalization is a likely solution. Perhaps much more so than charging her with aggravated manslaughter.
But how about in a situation like Amber’s, where the stakes are lower? Her parents are acting in a very normal way. Many parents ostracize their children over religious differences. It’s not unheard of, nor is it hard to see their good intentions. But are their actions devastating Amber? Yes. For my part, I was raised by perhaps perfect parents (they always win in the who-was-cooler-contest) and my siblings aren’t so bad, either, and dealing with my family is hard enough on my heart. I have a difficult time fathoming how I badly I would feel if my family treated me like Amber’s does her.
My gut instinct when I read Amber’s post was to tell her that they love her and to forgive them their faults. What a terrible responsibility, but I think that’s the responsibility for every person. Perhaps it will mean that she has to expect less from them. She desires their understanding, their intimacy, if I read her second post correctly. I feel with her there. How many times I want that from a particular person(s) and not had it. That is one of the hardest things I encounter. Sometimes I have to avoid that person because it’s too painful to have less. I hope Amber can find a way to be happy with her family so she doesn’t have to leave them. Maybe this is one of those times where people will grow from immaturity to maturity because of experience. Let’s hope so. Overall, I sincerely hope that Amber finds a way to not hurt.
Kristin, thanks for pointing out the difference between normal immaturity and unnacceptable behavior. It is also true that normal behavior can lead to tragic consequences.
I suppose that in the end I fall in the lower-your-expectations camp. The trouble with this is that it leaves me with a little commitment problem. I really am not that surprised by people because I don't let myself depend on them emotionally. I live by myself right now, so it works out...but I am pretty hesitant about ever truly coming to rely on another person. If you let yourself do it, you have no choice but to open yourself up to tragic loss. And it isn't that I am so afraid of loss...I just have a hard time deeply identifying with people.
I think the question of where to draw the line between accepting people's faults and abhoring them is a good one. Anyone willing to posit an answer?
Mike, thanks so much for your post! I *always* have appreciated your insight, and comments.
I will try to answer some questions, but there are so many good questions out here right now I can't possibly touch on all of them.
First, I should clarify my stance on my parents reactions of late. Yes, they are painful. Yes, I desire understanding - but the desire for understanding is not one-way. I do understand (at least in part) the pain they feel, their inexperience in handling a situation like this, and their deep love for the church. I understand they are trying to do the best they know how regarding me - and they feel at least as lost as I do about how to handle our relationship. I do have to deal with a lot of pain right now, but fully recognize that I am not the only one experiencing heartbreak in this situation. It's a lesson for all of us.
Second, it is most certainly not for social reasons that I am distancing myself from the church. I have NEVER fit in at church, and how rare it was to find someone there who I could intelligently debate my opinions on church matters with... which is how I've come to treasure knowing Mike. A few simple explanations of why I left is that I discovered things I thought I believed in doctrinally, but had actually be re-interpreting everything in my head to fit into a nice package of what I really believe in. It turns out that my own beliefs are not truly the same as church doctrines teach. When I thought the differences were simply cultural, social, and opinion based - I remained very active.
After my internally disturbing discovery about the rift in my beliefs and church beliefs, I continued to attend church for a while. My goal was to go open-minded, and explore what what was really being taught. Unfortunately, things did not get better for me. I could no longer participate in meetings, because I could not find anything constructive to say. I spent most all of my listening time internally screaming "no, that's NOT the way it is." I do value what I gained from being a member of the church, so I wanted to be able to look into it more objectively, so if I had to leave with no bitterness toward my experience. This is why I had to "take a break." The closer I stayed to the church, the more negative I became toward it. It's impossible to be objective with such passionate feelings.
So far, for my spiritual quest, my separation has been good for me in clarifying my beliefs. I also value the pain I'm experiencing - and need to state that I still love my family intensely.
Regarding debate: I agree with what you've posted, Mike, and think you worded it well. I also love the insight in your reply as to why things didn't work, Kristin.
Personally, I love debate done well and in its place (like the many debates I've had with you, Mike), and I love discussion that is not debate. The fulfillment I was seeking was simply a place to discuss. I can't say I *need* my beliefs validated by others, as I like alternative perspectives. But I do *not* need my beliefs invalidated, or attacked. There is certainly a difference between differing views and attacking ones views.
I felt at my worst the time I caught myself attacking anothers' persepctive I didn't agree with.
The question regarding immaturity is similar to the differences between being naive and being ignorant. The same factors can contirbute to both - lack of experience, lack of education - but there is a subtle line. The example I can draw on from my experience is pointing out to my residence when I was an RA that saying "Oh, that is so gay" is actually offensive. They responded with "why?" or "Oh, I can see that" and desired education which led to solving the problem. My residents were naive. When I pointed the same thing out to old high school friends who lived in Utah their response was "I don't care." My old friends remain ignorant.
I’ve often wondered about people like you, Mike, who declare themselves to be emotionally independent from other people. I am mixed in my assumptions. On one hand I imagine that it would be liberating (I think of times I did not form attachments when I feasibly could have or let go of attachments that I had; it felt so light that I was proud of myself), yet on the other I think it would be lonely. Perhaps an unaware lonely. While I’m not sure if I actually have anyone on whom I deeply depend, I do desire it. I would say that my desire makes me feel dependent even if there is no one in particular I am dependent upon. You say that you are hesitant. In what way? The hesitance I feel is largely due to being unsure if I could trust a person or doubting that we could have anything meaningful. How does your hesitance manifest itself? What is deeply identifying with people to you? Do you have experiences that set a standard?
Amber, I find your example of naivety and ignorance interesting. It reminds me of times where my stubbornness takes over and I don’t care about evaluating a new viewpoint. Therefore, I assumed your Utah friends are being stubborn. I wondered why. What do they have to lose by listening to you, or what do they have to gain by refusing? Or perhaps they just don’t get it, and their refusal isn’t motivated by some secret reason. I’m not sure which I prefer to think. The first can have some devious factors and the second implies a sort of stupidity.
I think that how forgiving we are of perceived social flaws is interesting. I think that I have done the same thing as you did in maintaining loyalty when I think my problems are with the culture but pulling away when I recognize dissonance between my beliefs and doctrine. It becomes especially troubling when I suspect that some of my beliefs are contradictory. Do you have any contradicting beliefs? How does one maintain integrity in that situation? What constitutes maintaining integrity?
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